I agree as well. I don't mind knowing what sources are more direct inspirations for the thing, but the place for that isn't in the first paragraph.
Good description:
This game is a space opera with mystical knights wielding laser swords and using supernatural powers in a rebellion against a space empire. The people of the rebellion are a short underground dwelling people with long tails, they fight to survive against the evil alien space empire who live inside their tank like armor and know little else except how to exterminate their enemies.
Bad description:
I wanted to make star wars but using Fraggle Rock vs the Daleks.
I came to this hot off of watching a one shot actual play of Mothership that leaned hard in to Alien™ tropes. It got the story moving quickly, and all the cast on the same page in an instant. It was a great watch and it lead to me coming to this thinking you'd have a hard time convincing me touchstones are a negative but, it didn't take long. You're absolutely right.
So much of these shortcuts when discussing things just feels like a form of nerd competency, "If you've seen x, y, and z; you'll love this!". It's a handy shorthand but, like you say, it feels gatekeepy and a barrier to entry when done wrong.
I'm seeing this in my fiction circles as well. As an indie writer I was ignorant to it's existence, but friends who are trying to be trad published are treating these comparisons as hoops their books have to jump through.
A similar trend exists in podcasts and video reviews of games. Folks talk about the touchstones, especially with art but also with vibe, and it often reduces my interest if I don't know the reference. It elicits the same reaction, 'this game/module/adventure is probably not for me.'
I’m not a fan of games licensed on specific media either(rather than just a touchstone), I find them too creatively restrictive.
Unfortunately I have also had too many less than fun experiences of other players wanting to recreate the storylines of movies / shows almost 1:1, which completely misses the point of RPG’s for me. But it’s horses for courses I guess.
I feel this too to a degree, but I think there's probably alot of pressure on these crowdfunding campaigns to draw in alot of people. Anymore though, THERE ARE SO MANY GODDAMN CROWDFUNDING CAMPAIGNS GOING ON ALL THE FRICKIN' TIME, and all of them are fighting for my attention (and money), so I think they feel the need to use references as a sort of quick elevator pitch/short-hand that immediately gives the jist of the game without having to explain all the worldbuilding and mechanics. A game can tell me it uses a hand of cards as both your actions and your health and go into how that works and why that'd be interesting to play, or it could just reference Gears of War or Gloomhaven and I might immediately pick up on that "vibe" without having to spend time reading (it's so exhausting! /s).
Half the time, I just delete crowdfunding campaign notices from my inbox, almost right away, specifically so that I don't get drawn into them because I'm trying to stay away from crowdfunding campaigns. I'm just oversaturated with gaming content and don't need anything else right now. I am most likely not going to read through their sales pitch past maybe the first few lines. I think alot of these campaigns realize they probably have limited chances to get our attention, so they have to condense as much of their pitch as they can to overcome that crowdfunding weariness that may have set in for alot of gamers (no idea if the numbers actually back this up, maybe business is booming).
So I agree, I think it is a bit lazy, but part of it too I think might be out of necessity.
You’re not alone in your assessment. Comparing it to something else is stupid.
But let me leave you with something more, nobody cares about what your game is either.
Tell them what it will do for them.
You can create Conan, Galadriel, Superman, or Data in 5 minutes in Tales of Glory — a true build that will satisfy that deep desire to create the character you want to really play.
And after that, you can save the realm from great evils that lurk under the surface of the different worlds of the multiverse!
Honestly, I'm mostly glad I'm not going crazy. I had noticed the marketing strategy but I hadn't been able to articulate what it was that was putting me off from a lot of games that had touchstones I should love. But I think this is why.
I've been thinking a little about this because I sold my campaign pitch recently as "Halo ODST but hella horror" to some friends. But I also had to explain that its absolutely not actually ODST, its something entirely different, but that's the general vibe. Becauae I don't think my friends would have understood it as "military sci-fi mixed with cosmic and absurdist horror". And i also knew that specifically ODST was a common touchstone with them
When a game says "Soulslike" it's a clear reference to Dark Souls franchise. I wonder what are your thoughts when the touchstone/vibe becomes a genre (i.e. "Soulslike")
I think broad genres are great, saying your game is dark fantasy is a broad enough field that you’re minimising preconceptions about what the game is going to be about. Soulslike is a tricky one, I would be very hesitant to use it: it comes with a lot of specific expectations whilst still being rooted in a particular body of work, for me at least.
I also find Souslike far too nebulous. Take for example the Lords of the Fallen remake. The game is Soulslike in a very superficial way. Played too straight, without any of the humor Fromsoft brings. Or bring Miyazaki's want of dignity/empathy to designs.
"But imagine writing a novel and when attempting to briefly describe, it you just start listing other media." This is actually exactly what agents want you to do in your query letter. You describe your novel and you give the comps (comparable novels already in circulation). So yeah, I can imagine it because that's how it's done.
Whilst that’s ok for internal processes (though I’d argue the only reason this happens is because agents want the screening process to be as fast as possible) I don’t think it’s a great way to do things if you are communicating with an actual audience of buyers!
Comps are actually used in book blurbs, too, which is communicating with actual buyers holding the actual book in their hands to read the covers and the inside blurbs. I'm making the point that in some cases, what you say is not good communication is standard. I don't disagree with your point in the games arena, but in some places it's expected and standard. Fiction publishing is one of those places.
I wonder how much cognitive work there is in going from “this is like Star Wars” to “this is a space fantasy that combines elements of spaghetti westerns, samurai movies, and world war two newsreels”(arguably less helpful) to “this is a game about fighting bad guys in space and finding your family.” It took me five minutes or so. Also, probably a case for both-and
While I mostly agree with what you wrote, I think saying that touchstones are tiring is a bit off for me. A lot of systems or perhaps more accurately, a lot of tables and groups, require some shared understanding of the game's tone, atmosphere, and boundaries.
One reason I like to specify my inspirations is that they help communicate to the players the kind of space I want us to explore together. In a way, I’m saying, “Let’s try to keep our narration within this realm rather than that one.” To me, touchstones are complementary to things like scenario briefings, expectations, content warnings, and other forms of onboarding.
For example, if I’m running Trophy Dark, I would much rather tell my players that I’m aiming for something closer to the feeling of Dark Souls or Hyper Light Drifter than leave everything completely open-ended. Without some shared reference points, players may improvise in directions that feel jarring to the story I’m trying to facilitate.
Of course, touchstones can be overused, and not everyone will share the same understanding of a reference. But I find them valuable because they give the table a common language for discussing tone, aesthetics, and expectations before play even begins. Again this is on top of other onboarding materials.
Interesting but I think we are talking about two different things here. One is relational marketing for products. The other is the motivation of experience for players in groups. That is how I see touchstones most.
Mork Borg mignt have been one of the worst examples to pick! The first words on the website that aren't logos or nav elements are literally "A doom metal album of a game...)
It may be more recognizable in its own right now that it's been around for a while, but hyperspecific metal references were a huge part of its marketing in the early days!
I think using a general genre reference is pretty different to referencing specific media/works or IPs! It’s pretty similar to saying a game is ‘dark fantasy’ for me, just a slightly cleverer way of angling it!
But Mörk Borg does reference other media—the tagline is literally ”A doom metal album of a game.” And I’m like more into technical death metal?!
Jk, I’m kidding, of course. Great article and well articulated.
I agree as well. I don't mind knowing what sources are more direct inspirations for the thing, but the place for that isn't in the first paragraph.
Good description:
This game is a space opera with mystical knights wielding laser swords and using supernatural powers in a rebellion against a space empire. The people of the rebellion are a short underground dwelling people with long tails, they fight to survive against the evil alien space empire who live inside their tank like armor and know little else except how to exterminate their enemies.
Bad description:
I wanted to make star wars but using Fraggle Rock vs the Daleks.
Spot on!
I came to this hot off of watching a one shot actual play of Mothership that leaned hard in to Alien™ tropes. It got the story moving quickly, and all the cast on the same page in an instant. It was a great watch and it lead to me coming to this thinking you'd have a hard time convincing me touchstones are a negative but, it didn't take long. You're absolutely right.
So much of these shortcuts when discussing things just feels like a form of nerd competency, "If you've seen x, y, and z; you'll love this!". It's a handy shorthand but, like you say, it feels gatekeepy and a barrier to entry when done wrong.
I'm seeing this in my fiction circles as well. As an indie writer I was ignorant to it's existence, but friends who are trying to be trad published are treating these comparisons as hoops their books have to jump through.
That’s pretty sad to hear…
A similar trend exists in podcasts and video reviews of games. Folks talk about the touchstones, especially with art but also with vibe, and it often reduces my interest if I don't know the reference. It elicits the same reaction, 'this game/module/adventure is probably not for me.'
Hard agree!
I’m not a fan of games licensed on specific media either(rather than just a touchstone), I find them too creatively restrictive.
Unfortunately I have also had too many less than fun experiences of other players wanting to recreate the storylines of movies / shows almost 1:1, which completely misses the point of RPG’s for me. But it’s horses for courses I guess.
I feel this too to a degree, but I think there's probably alot of pressure on these crowdfunding campaigns to draw in alot of people. Anymore though, THERE ARE SO MANY GODDAMN CROWDFUNDING CAMPAIGNS GOING ON ALL THE FRICKIN' TIME, and all of them are fighting for my attention (and money), so I think they feel the need to use references as a sort of quick elevator pitch/short-hand that immediately gives the jist of the game without having to explain all the worldbuilding and mechanics. A game can tell me it uses a hand of cards as both your actions and your health and go into how that works and why that'd be interesting to play, or it could just reference Gears of War or Gloomhaven and I might immediately pick up on that "vibe" without having to spend time reading (it's so exhausting! /s).
Half the time, I just delete crowdfunding campaign notices from my inbox, almost right away, specifically so that I don't get drawn into them because I'm trying to stay away from crowdfunding campaigns. I'm just oversaturated with gaming content and don't need anything else right now. I am most likely not going to read through their sales pitch past maybe the first few lines. I think alot of these campaigns realize they probably have limited chances to get our attention, so they have to condense as much of their pitch as they can to overcome that crowdfunding weariness that may have set in for alot of gamers (no idea if the numbers actually back this up, maybe business is booming).
So I agree, I think it is a bit lazy, but part of it too I think might be out of necessity.
Thanks for this.
You’re not alone in your assessment. Comparing it to something else is stupid.
But let me leave you with something more, nobody cares about what your game is either.
Tell them what it will do for them.
You can create Conan, Galadriel, Superman, or Data in 5 minutes in Tales of Glory — a true build that will satisfy that deep desire to create the character you want to really play.
And after that, you can save the realm from great evils that lurk under the surface of the different worlds of the multiverse!
Honestly, I'm mostly glad I'm not going crazy. I had noticed the marketing strategy but I hadn't been able to articulate what it was that was putting me off from a lot of games that had touchstones I should love. But I think this is why.
I've been thinking a little about this because I sold my campaign pitch recently as "Halo ODST but hella horror" to some friends. But I also had to explain that its absolutely not actually ODST, its something entirely different, but that's the general vibe. Becauae I don't think my friends would have understood it as "military sci-fi mixed with cosmic and absurdist horror". And i also knew that specifically ODST was a common touchstone with them
When a game says "Soulslike" it's a clear reference to Dark Souls franchise. I wonder what are your thoughts when the touchstone/vibe becomes a genre (i.e. "Soulslike")
I think broad genres are great, saying your game is dark fantasy is a broad enough field that you’re minimising preconceptions about what the game is going to be about. Soulslike is a tricky one, I would be very hesitant to use it: it comes with a lot of specific expectations whilst still being rooted in a particular body of work, for me at least.
I also find Souslike far too nebulous. Take for example the Lords of the Fallen remake. The game is Soulslike in a very superficial way. Played too straight, without any of the humor Fromsoft brings. Or bring Miyazaki's want of dignity/empathy to designs.
"But imagine writing a novel and when attempting to briefly describe, it you just start listing other media." This is actually exactly what agents want you to do in your query letter. You describe your novel and you give the comps (comparable novels already in circulation). So yeah, I can imagine it because that's how it's done.
Whilst that’s ok for internal processes (though I’d argue the only reason this happens is because agents want the screening process to be as fast as possible) I don’t think it’s a great way to do things if you are communicating with an actual audience of buyers!
Comps are actually used in book blurbs, too, which is communicating with actual buyers holding the actual book in their hands to read the covers and the inside blurbs. I'm making the point that in some cases, what you say is not good communication is standard. I don't disagree with your point in the games arena, but in some places it's expected and standard. Fiction publishing is one of those places.
I wonder how much cognitive work there is in going from “this is like Star Wars” to “this is a space fantasy that combines elements of spaghetti westerns, samurai movies, and world war two newsreels”(arguably less helpful) to “this is a game about fighting bad guys in space and finding your family.” It took me five minutes or so. Also, probably a case for both-and
While I mostly agree with what you wrote, I think saying that touchstones are tiring is a bit off for me. A lot of systems or perhaps more accurately, a lot of tables and groups, require some shared understanding of the game's tone, atmosphere, and boundaries.
One reason I like to specify my inspirations is that they help communicate to the players the kind of space I want us to explore together. In a way, I’m saying, “Let’s try to keep our narration within this realm rather than that one.” To me, touchstones are complementary to things like scenario briefings, expectations, content warnings, and other forms of onboarding.
For example, if I’m running Trophy Dark, I would much rather tell my players that I’m aiming for something closer to the feeling of Dark Souls or Hyper Light Drifter than leave everything completely open-ended. Without some shared reference points, players may improvise in directions that feel jarring to the story I’m trying to facilitate.
Of course, touchstones can be overused, and not everyone will share the same understanding of a reference. But I find them valuable because they give the table a common language for discussing tone, aesthetics, and expectations before play even begins. Again this is on top of other onboarding materials.
Interesting but I think we are talking about two different things here. One is relational marketing for products. The other is the motivation of experience for players in groups. That is how I see touchstones most.
Mork Borg mignt have been one of the worst examples to pick! The first words on the website that aren't logos or nav elements are literally "A doom metal album of a game...)
It may be more recognizable in its own right now that it's been around for a while, but hyperspecific metal references were a huge part of its marketing in the early days!
I think using a general genre reference is pretty different to referencing specific media/works or IPs! It’s pretty similar to saying a game is ‘dark fantasy’ for me, just a slightly cleverer way of angling it!